[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress, episode number 304. Entitled back from holiday. It was recorded on Monday the 5th of August, 2024.
My name's Nathan Wrigley and I'm joined as always by some fabulous guests. I am joined by Marc Benzakein by big at Birgit Pauli-Haack and by Tim Nash.
It's a WordPress podcast, so what do we do? We're going to talk about WordPress.
We talk a little bit at the beginning about the WordPress 6.6 performance improvements.
Then we have an extended discussion about what's new in 18.6 of Gutenberg, particularly around data views. That gets quite complicated.
We talk about the new redesign to the learn.wordpress.org website, and how it's making it so much easier for people to learn all the different bits and pieces about WordPress.
The team, which is focused on accessibility would like some new team reps.
We also talk about WordCamp events. The fact that WordCamp Asia tickets are now on sale for next year, and the dates for WordCamp US 2025 have been announced.
And we also have an extended conversation about Perplexity AI, and about your WordPress dot coms websites data being used by that search engine.
It's all coming up next on this week in WordPress.
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Hello, hello, Good evening. Good morning, good afternoon. Wherever you are in the world. Very nice to have you with us. We had a week off last week because I went and threw myself in the ocean lots of times and it was really exciting. It was lovely to take a bit of time off with my family and that was really nice, but we're back to it.
And WordPress is the name of the game, episode number 304. And as you can see. Joined by some fabulous people. I'm making gestures like that is fabulous people. There they are all the fabulous people. let's start over there. Let's start with Tim Nash, who I'm very look at it. He is changed it doom speaker it says Now, Tim Nash is joining us at the 11th hour.
we were due to have, Remkus de Vries on and unfortunately Remus is not feeling particularly well. best wishes, Remus. I hope that illness departs quickly. But thank you Tim Nash for stepping in. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
[00:03:49] Tim Nash: You're welcome. I'll do my best Remus impressions throughout.
[00:03:52] Nathan Wrigley: Okay.
All right. It's gonna have to start with the removal of most of the, anyway, there's a visual. Yeah. Okay. yeah. Okay. So Tim Nash is gonna do something a little bit interesting. he's got a biography and he says he wants to read it out in the style of wait for it. Edgar Allen. I don't know anything about Edgar Allen Poe, but I'm guessing this is gonna be fond, so
[00:04:16] Tim Nash: I asked BT to write me a bio.
Oh, really? This is the bio it decided I should have, and I decided it should be read out in the style of al and po. Okay, so in shadowed realms of digital dreams where sights risk being hacked and defaced, Tim Nash rises as a sentinel of spectral light vigilantly guarding the haunted domains of WordPress through the endless night.
A consultant steeped in arcane wisdom, again, stop laughing off. Okay, sorry. Precise scripting and QL injection. His knowledge forms an impenetrable shield ting, the hacker, sinister designs.
[00:05:06] Nathan Wrigley: Tim
[00:05:06] Tim Nash: helps you, your defense. Strong ever vigilant. Protecting both your site and its users from lurking Fort, oh Lord.
But those who seek fortress, strong and true, Tim Nash, the guide will chart your course in the WordPress realm where spectral shadows, waltz, and Dads, he is the unwavering beacon. Teaching and training to keep your site updated, secure your steadfast guardian and spectral. Oh no. bra And for anybody else, ler Allen Po did cough.
The raven, they
[00:05:53] Nathan Wrigley: man life. You carried that off beautifully. The, there's a couple of things to, to say. I am now gonna refer to you as the unwavering beacon. That's my favorite bit of that. I don't even know what that means, but I like it. that was brilliant. It looks
[00:06:08] Birgit Pauli-Haack: like bacon too. Unwavering beacon, but
[00:06:12] Nathan Wrigley: I prefer that.
Yeah. thank you. so that's Tim Nash, in the style of Edgar Allen Poe. That's brilliant.
[00:06:19] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Ah,
[00:06:19] Nathan Wrigley: right. Recover and relax. And we've also got down there big at Pauly Hack. How you doing? Big it.
[00:06:26] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I'm good. I'm good. Thanks so much for inviting me and having me. Okay. And letting me be on the show again.
[00:06:31] Nathan Wrigley: You are very welcome.
big has told me that she wants to read her bio out in the style of Snoop Dogg and, I
[00:06:38] Birgit Pauli-Haack: dunno anything about Snoop Dogg? No, she hasn't. I can do it in German or something like that.
[00:06:42] Nathan Wrigley: She didn't say that to me. I just thought it'd be fun. no, but I'll read your bio out if you alright.
You'll, so being at Pally Hack is the publisher of the Gutenberg Times, which is actually a place where I end up getting a ton of the news for this show. each week. The people that make WordPress content, we just crib off each other and it's this endless cycle of cribbing off each other, and that's how it works.
But honestly, that's boards four. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. So go to go and Google Gutenberg times and go and check it out. Anyway, it's a site with news around the WordPress block editor and beyond, big. It also hosts the regular, live q and as on YouTube and host the podcast. Gutenberg Change log.
Gutenberg has been con, sorry. Bigot has been contributing to the WordPress Open Source project since 2014 and contributes now full time, sponsored by Automatic with two Ts. Hey, something exciting happened to me today. For the first time ever, my AI transcription tool got automatic spelled correctly ever, which is impressive if you think about it.
It actually knew that there was a difference between the automatic with two T's and the regular word. I thought, God, it's getting better. No doubt, end up with, some AI content in there. But, thanks for joining us, bigot. Appreciate it. And we're joined. Third person, we're joined is Mark.
Ah, I'm, can I try it because I
[00:08:06] Marc Benzakein: No,
[00:08:07] Nathan Wrigley: you're just gonna, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. Ben's a kind, Kane. There you go. Can is second, isnt it? There you go. Yeah. Yes it is. Yeah, I'm thinking now you
[00:08:17] Marc Benzakein: can, and now you can edit it and post and act like you got it right the first time. Okay. Yeah,
[00:08:22] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, That's what I'm gonna do anyway.
mark put in a really long biography, which I, probably, I'm unable to read, so I'll tell you what Mark. Easiest thing is if I just hand it to you and in, in a few short sentences, you tell us what you do.
[00:08:36] Marc Benzakein: My name is Mark Zaca. I am, I've been a word presser for like a hundred years and, since Edgar Allen Poe died, I think.
and, and I, do marketing for Maine, WP and, some other people. And, that's about it.
[00:08:59] Nathan Wrigley: That'll do, I'm still
[00:09:00] Marc Benzakein: waking, I'm still waking up. It's, I'm in California, so I'm, yeah. Oh yeah, Crazy o'clock where you are. it's I don't know what time it is. Yeah, it's still dark.
It's still dark out
[00:09:09] Nathan Wrigley: at the, at Word Camp Europe. I don't know if any of you watched the, thing, I know that some of you were there, but, if you watched it, Matt Mullenweg, one of the things that you wanted to do, you might not have used these words, but one of the things that you wanted to inject into WordPress was a bit of fun.
And I thought to myself. This show's been doing that for ages. What the heck? we've been doing fun for Edgar Allen Poe. What more could you want? but thank you, to all three of you for joining us today. We'll get on with the word pressing news. Just a couple of bits of housekeeping, before we start.
The first thing to say is the platforms are locking us out. more and more. The platforms are not allowing the comments to go to and fro. Facebook is a particular example. If you used to go to the Facebook group and comment in there, you can't anymore. They've. They killed the API. So the very, very best place to go these days is just go to our, just the page where we've got this listed and I can't actually find it.
Yeah, there it is. That's the one. Go to, wp builds.com/live. Share that with all your friends and your colleagues and drag people in. And the more comments that we get, the more fun it is. So that's wp builds.com/live. If you go there and you use the chat widget, which is on the right hand side on the desktop, then you need to be logged into Google.
'cause it's a YouTube comment thing. But you'll notice in the top right of the actual video is a little black box. It says live chat. And you can pop that out and, you don't need to be logged into anything. You just need to put your name and, name and, that's it. so you can put some comments in there if you like.
So wp builds.com/live if you'd like to do that. And we are joined by bigot, not. Did, was she one or two? I can't remember last. the other, yeah. The other last time we had both bigots on and it was highly confusing. but be because they are the bigots that sounds like a band from the fifties.
The bigots with their top hits. Gutenberg. so bigots saying hi. Thank you very much. Oh, there you go. the other bigot that's really nice. we're being joined by Drigo Creative, I guess that's the name of a company saying, checking in from Rally, rally North Carolina, I'm guessing. And then there's a chap here, he's a doom speaker.
He's saying hello. That's nice and I'm guessing this is you. and then Cameron joining us all the way from Sunny Australia. good morning. From what the heck? No. Oh. Oh, wait, He's trying to be Peter Ingersol. I like it. This is clever of him. It says, good morning from sunny Connecticut in the Northeast US.
It's 23 degrees, 74 degrees Fahrenheit. Hold on. I think I've grabbed the wrong script. This is what Peter Ingersol does and no, he's done it. Done it. Hi, genius. Greetings from Sonic, Connecticut, or 20, that was good. Cameron. Top marks. You've nicked a comment before it was actually written. Absolutely loving it.
And, hello there. Says Patricia as well. Keep the comments coming. If you've got anything you disagree with or anything you agree with, or any, any direction you wanna steer us in, please do that. It makes the show a lot more interesting. Alright, let's get stuck into it. Let us share the screen.
this is us, this is wp builds.com. I always do this at the beginning, trying to encourage people to subscribe. If you put your email address in this little box here, then we'll send you two emails a week. One when we produce the podcast on a, this is the show and I'll parcel it up as a podcast episode and release it tomorrow Tuesday.
So you'll get that. And then also you'll get the podcast, the interview kind of episode, which we do on a Thursday as well. So no spam guarantee, maybe a little spam around new, new Year's or something like that. I don't know, just. Basically it's two a week. That's all we do. And I would like to give thanks to our sponsors who at the moment, and a long time it's been GoDaddy Pro, so an enormous thank you to them.
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WordPress 6.6. As I said, I had a week off last week, so some of these news items might be a little bit more than a week old, but nevertheless, they've got some merit in them. WordPress 6.6. Yeah. Improvements in terms of performance. Adam Silverstein. I think Adam's a Googler. I could be wrong about that, but I've got an impression that Adam might be a Googler.
Yeah. Big it's nodding. Thank you. he is hard at work on the, performance side of things for WordPress and he's written up a little. Performance report to say what's happened and, essentially, bits and pieces. I think it's fair to say that the performance team have ground out over the last 18 months absolutely.
Boatloads of improvement. I get the feeling that maybe those, I don't know, the low hanging fruit is a little bit harder to find these days, but, yeah. WordPress 6.6 Dorsey was released to the public, includes some significant performance improvements, especially inside the editor. Template loading has improved by a notable 35%, which sounds pretty amazing when you say it like that.
for a second release in a row, significant new features were added. So we got loads of new features when 6.6 dropped. And I dunno what the metrics on this are, but it just says, whilst ensuring a minimal impact on server response times. although the default 2024 theme has actually had a little teeny tiny regression in performance just seven milliseconds, which is 5%.
and the same is actually true for classic themes. If you're using a classic theme, for example, 2021, it has also had a regression, but my much less just 1%. So 1.2 milliseconds, something like that. And then it gets all complicated. I. At this point, I don't understand anything anymore, but there's loads and loads of complicated things that I've highlighted to make it look like I know what's going on.
but I don't, so I'm not really going to explain it anyway. I dunno if any of you wanted to jump in on this, but obviously the, the job of making WordPress performance is really, important. Anybody wanna jump in? Yeah.
[00:15:19] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I really appreciate the work of the performance teams and they are the experts there.
So reading that, it's really amazing. but I have no clue about any of that. yeah, I know there are caching is involved and all that, but that's what's behind the scene. It's just, yeah. Beyond me.
[00:15:36] Nathan Wrigley: It's it is one of those things that you just have to take it on trust, don't you? You just hope that they're doing the work, that that essentially it is getting faster year on year.
I, I'm, of a mind where I, will never, ever spot seven milliseconds. there's no way my brain is gonna notice that. But obviously they're doing all this testing, they write it up. It sounds like it's a, it's an important thing. It's gone backwards. It's not
[00:15:59] Tim Nash: milliseconds on, sorry, say again.
It's not seven milliseconds on your typical site though. This is no, these are on their testing, they're testing vanilla. Yeah. But when you are talking about a site that has lots of extra heavy work going on, maybe it's got WooCommerce sitting on there, maybe it's got a bunch of plugins on there, lots of, and it's got hundreds of thousands of posts.
That seven milliseconds becomes a much larger number. And when you are, and and you will start to perceive that. So every time you shave just this tiny little bit off. On the sort of top percentiles of heavy usage sites, they'll see the bigger benefits. And obviously those of you who've got super optimized sites at the other end, will see less improvements each time.
But, we went for a long period where WordPress was getting heavier and performance was oh, it could be handled by plugins and by, and that meant that, the core team didn't, there wasn't much going into court and reduce things down. It was an afterthought. So just having a performance team who is actually going, huh?
Do you know what if we just stop indexing all of these things, we make that everything faster. which is something that a lot of people have been saying, but then they, it would've be, said, oh, that's it. Plugin territory. If you wanna speed up your site. And it's that's a really weird thing to say.
It's plugin territory to speed up your site. It should be course territory, and it's become that now, which is really good to see.
[00:17:30] Nathan Wrigley: I guess also if you've got a website, not just with thousands of pages, but if you've got, I don't know, hundreds potentially of concurrent visitors, all trying to hit the site at the same time, these little tiny microscopic it, let's call it that, these teeny tiny little improvements will add up to, I don't know, you might be able to serve 10 more, 15 more, a hundred more users at the exact same moment given the same infrastructure that you've got.
but also. Google has made that really important, lighthouse scores and, all the core web vitals that we were panic stricken about five years ago. And we're in a race with the platforms that have got tons of marketing cash that can spend ads on, in the Super Bowl and things like that.
So all of these little things matter and, although it's really finicky, it's really interesting reading these posts. And I actually did read it, but I do struggle to understand a lot of it. But the, just the little things like, okay, we spotted that there's two things going on in core that can be combined into one thing.
So in this case, that was, what was that? That was to do with, it says here, priming transient and transient timeout options in Get transit doesn't. Get transient doesn't really mean a lot to me. But essentially the takeaway from that is, okay, there's two things happening at once that has been for a long time.
We've now made it into one thing. It's minor, if somebody goes through the whole project with a fine tooth comb and works all of those little kinks out, that's fabulous.
[00:18:52] Tim Nash: And that's not just speed, that's reducing memory and CPU usage. And that's where you can go, okay, that's where your co current users get the benefits.
So now we, instead of having a thousand users, you can have 1,002 users on the site of the center.
[00:19:07] Nathan Wrigley: Right.
[00:19:08] Tim Nash: And that's really critical when you scale up and, you are, you're literally saving the planet every time you do that because using less server processing resources uses less electricity, burning less fuel in horrible places.
[00:19:25] Nathan Wrigley: Do you know, it's really interesting that although I occasionally make that connection, I. Between, on optimiz site or poor performing site or, slow laggy site or, including images where you don't need them or oversized images or what have you. It's very rare that my brain ticks over into the environmental debate.
And, this article by Adam, for example, doesn't make mention of that. It's done in a sort of very technical way, which is obviously his thing, and he's speaking to a technical audience who understand all of that. But I think maybe a, an easy, way through would be to describe the environmental impact of some of those things on a typical site, because that I can.
I get hold of, in a typical year, how much less carbon might I have on my website? And I know that there's projects which do all of that kind of thing. But yeah. Tim, good point. big, you've had a go, haven't you, mark anything to say on this before we crack on?
[00:20:16] Marc Benzakein: I, the only question I have, and this is because when it comes to what the performance team is doing, I'm truly ignorant.
So this is, this may even be a totally ignorant question, but I'm wondering what are they doing about, are they working on speeding up the dashboard? Because when you talk about all these other, people who have the money to buy big ads on the Super Bowl and things like that, basically their dashboard and everything is all built into one.
So it, it's really fast. And when I don't do a lot of dev work, but when I do dev work, when I'm sitting and, waiting for my dashboard to load things, and I know that's Uncast data and all that stuff. Are they doing anything to improve that?
[00:21:02] Nathan Wrigley: I don't know, but my intuition would be that the answer's yes, but I'm gonna say, let's put a pin in that.
Tim. let's
[00:21:09] Tim Nash: just take the transient one as a good example. Uhhuh, transients affect absolutely everything that's true and almost certainly they, unless you are sitting on a re on a, say, some sort of managed hosting, chances are the trans is sitting in your database. So they're also benefiting from the auto upload, auto options, bits, indexing options.
So even in that, just that one release, there should be significant performance improvements.
[00:21:33] Marc Benzakein: Yeah, that's a good point.
[00:21:35] Nathan Wrigley: So steady away on this particular article, but I think if we were to round up the, way that the performance team has improved WordPress over the last 18 months, I think it, it's pretty amazing, really, the fact that we didn't have a team like that and then now we've got some really rather intelligent eyeballs casting their eye over the, core of WordPress.
Yeah. Amazing. It'd be interesting to see where WordPress would be right now if that team hadn't have existed. I think it would be quite a different, more molasses than, than oil. Let's just put it that way. okay. So thank you for those of you that are continuing to contribute. Appreciate it. Courtney Robertson's joined us.
Thank you so much. who else? Andrew Palmer saying hi as well. Pete Ri is joining us. Thank you. And yeah, I think that's all we've got. Oh, no. And Elliot Richmond is saying, WP builds putting the fun in wp. Yeah. Preach it. Elliot, thumbing through my best dad jokes as we speak. Yeah, that's it. That is the measure of my humor.
It's plumbing. New depths. Dad jokes. Always welcome. Put as many as you can find, Elliot into it. Okay, here we go. Let's move on. this one is firmly in beer. It's territory, as we said, it's the Gutenberg Times. Is the project that, big is, I think not entirely, but largely responsible for. And, we have this, the, Gutenberg 18.9, what's new in Gutenberg.
And the answer is quite a lot to do with this. In particular, this was the headline article, data views. And actually it occurred to me, Bigge, if you're just new to WordPress, and in fact even if you've been using WordPress for ages, this term data views doesn't necessarily leap into your head as to what it is.
So can I just throw it at you and tell us what's new about data views and, indeed what are data views?
[00:23:27] Birgit Pauli-Haack: So yeah, to get back to, I totally see what you're getting at. It's pretty much part of that, WP admin redesign. but it's, right now solely, visible in the site editor, with, list views for pages, for templates, for patterns, and, they're experimenting or, yeah, it's pretty much a new design of the WP admin, and all those, list views.
they're adding a few things in there. with this release of 18.9 that was, that you can reorder the columns. And you also could add some custom fields in there. and what I really like on the data use is actually the different layouts that you can have here, the grid view and what you are, right now, showing.
and now they're working on the bulk actions. So if you, check multiple items in the list and, what is the, what are the bulk actions that you can, do we know Okay, deleting or editing. but yeah, what else is gonna be there? they're also, looking at, support combined fields. So if in the filtering, so if you, want all those published by a certain author, but not the draft ones and not the pending ones.
you want all those that are published in a certain category from a particular author, maybe. Yeah. combining that and then, under the page of the pages section, you, yeah, you see which one of the pages is actually designated to be the front page and they just, updated that, that icon there.
So it's, A lot of incremental, changes every, two weeks. and it's really interesting to see how it all comes about. There are quite a few experiments going. One is the data use for the posts. Yeah. for now you can, yeah. Whoever is new to WordPress is get a whole lot of confused because the WP admin is pretty much in two views.
One is the WP admin as we know it, and the other one is in the site editor where everything looks a little bit more modern and, revamped. But then how do I get to the posts? You have to go all the way back to the WP admin login to go to the post and, so there is, yeah, that's the next part of it.
that's going to come into data views and, what was the other one?
[00:26:11] Nathan Wrigley: on, on this particular article, the main focus that, I think they wanted to inject was, more flexibility in this data of view. So as we saw in the little video, and apologies if you're listening to this, but, I'll link to the, post and you can see it's a short video.
It's 16 seconds long and there's no audio. it just shows how you can, I don't know, view things as a grid, but then you've got like this kind of more faceted search so you can delve deeper and you can change the amount of columns that you've got. It's just a much more modern design. And actually picture in the comments as it feels like, notion, I'd actually use notion, but notions like a place to dump your brain, isn't it?
It's a, I think
[00:26:48] Tim Nash: unlike notion and I, thought the same one as pizza. When I first heard the view term data views, I got really excited because data views means data binding, which is like a, basically a visual way to represent data that you can pull from other places. And then I looked to where.
Ah, that's not what this is at all. This is just redesigning the posts and appear. Wait, they're
[00:27:13] Birgit Pauli-Haack: still data views? Yeah. You pull data from somewhere.
[00:27:15] Tim Nash: They're, but they're perhaps not the, the fantastical future I was hoping they were. and I think, so in no, in notion and obsidian and loads of other sort of systems, the, the idea of a data view is normally the, you can, effectively bind data into maybe a table or into a pattern, and pull that data, across.
And I think I. That's the same terminology that's used in say, Drupal, where?
[00:27:46] Birgit Pauli-Haack: But it's also the same terminology that's used in the components. So if you are a plugin developer, you can use your data that you pull in from wherever you come and put it into a data view component. And these components are all available to you.
Yeah. You have all the grid view, you have the,
[00:28:02] Tim Nash: but are they're not available to you on the columns. You can decide they're available in the block. This doesn't use blocks though, does it? This is something different and separate.
[00:28:11] Birgit Pauli-Haack: They're available under, the NPM package, WordPress com, forward slash components.
Or if you go to storyboard board, storyboard book storybook of components, you can actually see them all. And they're, that's why they are a little bit hidden because they're still working on the components. But those will be available for 20, any plugin 20. theme developer who has additional, usage for it, and that's what they do.
They pull in data from anywhere. Is the
[00:28:43] Nathan Wrigley: idea of, is the idea of something like notion that you can basically throw any kind of data at it? I don't know. So it might be like video URLs, it might be audio files, it might be dates or anything. And then in some way you can map those things to all the other things and then display it in a, in some unusual way, like you said, a table, but it might be some sort of spider diagram or something like that.
It's
[00:29:05] Tim Nash: probably better described as a wiki. Sorry. Yep.
[00:29:10] Birgit Pauli-Haack: no, that's okay. No, I, think it, it's not gonna be for the end user that you can put in an, maybe that's a future usage in a plugin. You cannot connect it to a, an Excel spreadsheet or a Google sheet and then have it pull in. you need the connector to it.
That still needs to be developed from a plugin developer. Yeah. but the display of it in the WP admin or on the front end if you want to, can be the data components that are, smaller. Like web components, but they are, good work components that are UIs that you don't have to develop yourself.
[00:29:51] Nathan Wrigley: Interesting. Okay. Okay. but in this particular case, much more general really based around, pages and posts and things like that. So we were just looking at, grids and how you can do those and a sort of faceted search really, so that you can not only Filter by one thing, but by multiple things.
So you could say, show me everything that was published before this date by this author. Which at the moment you certainly can't do out of the. Blocks, sorry, out of, with a vanilla site. And then, little things like this page view, and again, apologies if you're watching this, but links are in the show notes where you'll be able to combine multiple data views into sort of one place.
So they're saying here, for example, you could put in the same place the author's name next to their avatar, next to the, the name of the post and just put them all into one spot so it doesn't have to occupy a column all of its own. And I guess in some way, that is what we're talking about. And then, consolidating divine design tools across a bunch of blocks, and they're listed on the screen.
So Gutenberg 18.9 brings border controls to gallery button heading, paragraph quote blocks, social links, and term description blocks. And the image and search blocks also get margin support. So again, some little incremental improvements there just to unify things. There's a whole load. again, if I just scroll down the page, you can see there's absolutely boatloads in there, but they were the top level items.
[00:31:19] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah. Good. Mark had about 245 prs.
[00:31:24] Nathan Wrigley: Wow.
[00:31:25] Birgit Pauli-Haack: yeah, you, won't go through all the, line items there. But I think it had about, six, 84 enhancements that are tiny little enhancements that go for big one and then the 72 buck fixes.
[00:31:41] Nathan Wrigley: Do you know Tim, the curious thing about the, about things like notion and obsidian, you know when you see the, you go to their landing page and you see all of those data views and they all look really impressive and, I always get so socket into it and I think, oh, I'm gonna try this tool out.
And then I try it with my ordinary set of things. I dunno, I'm doing shopping lists and I'm trying to remember wedding anniversaries and, stuff like that. And I can never conjure up a, decent use of a data view that they're suggesting would be useful to me. I, I've ended up back with Evernote and I dunno if you've come across that, it's like an arcane platform and basically it just gives you posts with tags and that's with search, that's where I wanna be. So this, sort of WordPress data view fits, it maps to my head quite well. But all those other quirky things that you can do with obsidian, and obviously if you have mining data, that would be really useful, but I just can't seem to find a use for it.
[00:32:41] Tim Nash: So I'm a, big,
[00:32:43] Nathan Wrigley: OB user. Yeah.
[00:32:45] Tim Nash: and it really, and really do use it as like a second brain type structure. Yeah. I use data of use quite a lot, in for notes, but I also combined with templates, they're super powerful, even if it's just a simple thing of being able to go, okay, I'm having a meeting with Bob, so I can just create, a new meeting from template and Bob's details are there.
I. They're already pre-populated.
[00:33:11] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, I see.
[00:33:13] Tim Nash: Now I have the, that's technically a data view. I'm bringing data from another note through to pre-populate this. So now I can go, oh, I've got details about Bob. That's brilliant. Now I, and the, that's where I, so coming from there, the future for WordPress and for plugin development sounds really great.
If we can get into a snake scenario where we can easily bring in data from anywhere and show it in the WordPress admin in a really unified way, which we haven't had before. Because let's face it, plug in UI is interesting. And part of that is that there has been absolutely no UI standards prior to that for anything to do with plugins.
A nice, easy, and by easy. Not necessarily needing to learn a huge amount of react and have to dive too deeply. But if we can provide them with, literally, hey, you point your vest requests to this data view endpoint, and it will do all the work. it will put it on the screen for you.
That's gonna be amazing. Just think of all the various plugins that you use that just are about showing you data ultimately.
[00:34:26] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. okay, so an example of, that, you mentioned this guy, fictional guy, Bob, and you wanna have a meeting with him. So at some point you, find the data, which is Bob.
So there's, data which is Bob, height, weight, whatever. Yeah. And then in some way you can tell that data, make me a meeting with that thing and it will create another, if you like, custom post type and it'll pre-populate all the relevant bits. Like we might not want his weight, but we might want his date of birth, for example.
And that will come in and you click a button and, okay. That's fascinating. I hadn't really thought about it like that.
[00:35:00] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah, that's called a CRM.
[00:35:02] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. In that particular case. But imagine it was like a real estate website or something, and I don't know, you had a spreadsheet of, I don't know, like 20 houses, and you just want to chalk 'em in.
You tell the data of view. Okay, here's 20 houses with all the bits and pieces. Now go and make the posts for me. oh, okay. All right. Okay.
[00:35:20] Marc Benzakein: Mark, anything to say? Yeah. the only thing I, have to say about that, all of that is, that's all well and good now, we, at main, the bp, we use HubSpot, right?
Which does all that stuff, right? But everything is so fricking convoluted and crazy that you have to like, get certifications for this, and this in order to be able to use it. And so my only thing is this is really cool, and, I, like everything that Tim is saying, but we need to focus on making it easy first.
Okay. Before we, before, before we. say, Hey, we can do this, and this and I think that this is one of the things that you, the divides you have between engineering and then ux right? Is engineering says, Hey, we can do this. Let's make it happen. We can do this.
We, let's make it, and then the UX guys are like, okay, how do we make this easy?
[00:36:15] Tim Nash: Because I fought very, maybe I mis explain that. my, my problem is that we letting engineers do ux. Oh, I see. I see this as a future where we don't, we tell them you provide the data. You don't touch the UX because it's being given your, all your job is, to give them stuff.
And that was where my future I, had this wonderful idea where thoughts of Yeah, engineers not touching UX and thereby that's all being much nicer. Yeah. I'm sorry, but
[00:36:50] Birgit Pauli-Haack: that's gonna be a fantasy.
[00:36:53] Marc Benzakein: Yeah. And, that's, yeah. And that's the thing is, I guess that's what I'm saying though, is that.
I think engineer and believe me, I, love engineers. how can we not, but, they're the ones, they come up with these great ideas and, the, thing that drives engineers is I can do this and now I'm going to do this. And then they leave it out to everyone else to figure out how to make it look pretty.
And, that sometimes is very difficult.
[00:37:25] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Isn't that, the nor, yeah.
[00:37:28] Marc Benzakein: What's that? Isn't
[00:37:28] Birgit Pauli-Haack: that the normal? Isn't that the normal dis It is between a word developer and a word user, where you know that only 20% of this huge, software is gonna be used. A Yeah. Normal PA person. Yeah. That's, half insane.
But,
[00:37:48] Marc Benzakein: yeah, but I guess I, I like
[00:37:50] Birgit Pauli-Haack: the, I like the notion part. Yeah. And I really, wanted to get into it. Yeah. But I already had systems in place that I would have a whole lot of work to give up to give it all to notion and then I don't have to discipline for that or the time to move it over.
Yeah. So I'm that all in one. I'm more the one, the person said, okay, do one. Thing. Good. And I'll figure out the connection, somehow,
[00:38:19] Marc Benzakein: and, I, for me everything is, a, now it's a Google spreadsheet, but it might be an Excel spreadsheet. So everything is I just throw the data out to that and then I manipulate it because that's what I know and it's easy and I don't have to relearn a whole thing and all of that.
Yeah. And, I can do with an Excel spreadsheet, especially now with chat GPT, if I don't know a formula, I just say, I have column A that does this and column C that does this, and then I've got another spreadsheet that does this, and I want this and this to do, boom. I've got my, what I need to do, and within 10 minutes I've got my spreadsheet doing what I want it to do.
And I know that's not necessarily efficient. It's, but it's efficient for me because I'm not going through a learning curve.
[00:38:57] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I don't think it's the least efficient. It's not modern. Yeah. it's, it's definitely
[00:39:01] Marc Benzakein: not modern. Yeah. It's. Definitely old school. Old I know Multi What plan
[00:39:05] Birgit Pauli-Haack: was one of the first, spreadsheets.
And that's from the eighties or, yeah, early nineties kind of thing. But it's still hasn't changed how you use a spreadsheet yet. I, my Lotus
[00:39:15] Tim Nash: Notes is doing well. I just,
[00:39:17] Marc Benzakein: I was gonna say Lotus Notes is what I remember. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:39:21] Nathan Wrigley: but really interesting though. 'cause this whole thing, it, we're at some sort of inflection point, aren't we?
Were we clear? We. Clearly wanna display more stuff than, we typically have. We've decided that there's massive limitations on what we've got, and also we, do like the way, modern UI and UX looks, and it'd be interesting to see where we are in a few years time. I doubt something incredibly complicated is gonna come into core because that doesn't seem to be its job.
But the, options here for developers to, to push things will be quite interesting. Andrew Palmer has said, stay
[00:39:53] Tim Nash: complicated,
[00:39:54] Nathan Wrigley: Don. Letting them be complicated. Yes.
[00:39:57] Tim Nash: Make it
[00:39:57] Nathan Wrigley: easy. Yeah. Okay. Andrew Palmer says some page builders, some cloud page builders have had this facility, have this facility already so you can, see your posts and pages in a list view.
Okay. Thank you. That was the, the page view I guess that we had. And, and coming to court, he said it's good that it's coming to court.
[00:40:16] Tim Nash: Just very quickly, Nathan, just, I, have 42,000 notes in my obsidian vault. Are,
[00:40:23] Nathan Wrigley: so they're deri, are they little, are they points of data? So is it 42,000 bits and a
[00:40:28] Tim Nash: notice is just a a, markdown file.
[00:40:31] Nathan Wrigley: So it's 42 and that
[00:40:32] Tim Nash: file will be normally one or two things in
[00:40:34] Nathan Wrigley: there. And you can bind those 42,000 things to any other. Gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. But I can also
[00:40:40] Tim Nash: search them and they've got nice graph views with tags do.
[00:40:43] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And there's something very satisfying about sitting there, like just wrangling all of that data into hundreds of views that only you can understand that it is completely impenetrable to anybody else.
I do that. That's great. Yeah. I needlessly get into tagging of things that just doesn't need to happen and downloading things that, yeah. Anyway, blah, blah, blah. All right. There we go. So that was a piece, it was called What's New in Gutenberg 18.9. It came out on July the 31st. So again, it'll be in the show notes.
speaking of data views, Ann McCarthy, who we know very well, she was in charge of, I'll just read it here actually, she says, as the test lead for WordPress 6.6, and from my experience running the full site editing outreach program, I remain obsessed with how we can bring more people into testing key parts of what's new in WordPress and empower people to share feedback in the project.
And What we've been talking about, data views. Anne McCarthy has just thrown this piece together where she created a, playground website. We won't go into that, but it's nice, quick, easy to do. and then through 200 pages worth of content in there in order to stress test what the, how the data views would work and what the pain points were.
And it's interesting almost immediately, even though Anne is completely wedded to the project and, using it in and out all day, every day, immediately ran into problems. O of the likes of, data view. Switching layouts shouldn't reset the filters, but apparently it did. Filtering by numerous authors caused, frameshift, which was then apparently updated, sorry, gotten rid of, when trying to bulk edit on a site with many pages, the bulk edit options counts up, changing pages per, sorry, changing the items per page to a hundred results in poor loading experience.
And a few more. We don't need to labor the point. The, point is there were little gremlins in there, and the intuition that she has is. She wants to take this up to a 2000 page website, so 10 x the amount of data in there and see how this goes. And because of that, 'cause of the pain points that we're run into, the idea is c can other people try this as well?
And, and so that's what this page is about. She, wants to figure out if this is, unique to her or if there's other pain points. So again, I'll link to this in the show notes and you can then join Anne McCarthy in finding out how these data views work for you and if they're broken or if they're slow or if something behaves in an unexpected way.
her blog, Anne's blog is Nomad Blog and this is called Join Me in Testing Data View. So if you wanna contribute to that directly with Anne, and then I presume that will lead back into the project itself. anybody wanna comment on that? Probably not. Should we? Actually, I
[00:43:29] Marc Benzakein: just, I just wanna say I like that she actually gives you examples of what to try at the end.
Yeah. I think a lot, I think a lot of people, they say, yeah, I'd love to test it, and then they don't. Because they don't know where to start. So I think that's, trying to encourage people to test, something, giving them a place to start is a really good move in. Yeah.
[00:43:52] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you, mark.
And I'll, just mention what they are. So some suggestions for things that you could do. Low hanging fruit, if you like, would be, set up this thing, with the, then you click a button. There's a literally a bottom to create a playground version. So click that, wait five seconds, and then try things like create a new page, search for a page, try filtering for multiple things in this case, author and status, change the layout and use the pagination controls and see how that goes.
And then there's a link to a GI Gutenberg GitHub repo. where presumably you can offer some feedback, so some ideas of what to test, it's a neat idea rather than doing it as a, I don't know, just launching your own little initiative in this case. Anne, I've got this thing. I just want people to help me out.
There is my page. Off we go. Let's see if anybody, contributes anything on that big or Tim, or shall I just crack on?
[00:44:43] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I have,
[00:44:44] Nathan Wrigley: okay. Yeah, just,
[00:44:45] Birgit Pauli-Haack: the, FSE outreach program was actually experimental and it now evolved into, instead of FSE Outreach Experimental, the channel is now outreach.
So where you can come in and, if you're testing some of that and you are not sure what the bug is about, because the, biggest problem with good Gutenberg repo filing a bug report is. That you actually need to isolate where it actually comes. Yeah. So, it's not too high level, but if you, it's, hard for someone who is not a programmer or has done many, bug reports in customer service before, to actually nail down what the problem to is.
Yeah. and so we are having discussion in the outreach channel, of course. is it, known behavior that does, so and and we do a back and forth of it to figure out is that a bug that needs to be reported or is it something that is by design or is something that's a plugin conflict? Yeah.
I hate those. yeah. so if, you, the listeners here have some just wanna check in, come to the outreach channel, we are really nice people. Yeah. It's a safe space to answer those questions. And, also. And get help. If something doesn't work out, there's a plugin or a theme developer. just making the pitch here, that's the follow up program from the FSE Outreach program.
and I'm, sure we're gonna get that, call for testing also into the channel, from the official testing. Team, to have more, ideas or instead of four greater, instructions for planning instructions. Can I have more of it? And that was actually the superpower Ann has or had with the, cons for testing and FSE outage, that she had, a whole set of testing instructions prior to the WebPress release.
So you could, as a, normal user or a developer or anything, just go through the, call of testing and learn about the new features by trying them out, with a little, roadmap there. So I really like that and I hope we, can continue that, as well on the data views. Thank you.
And other things that come for WebPress 6.7.
[00:47:10] Nathan Wrigley: thank you for that. Be, Courtney saying that, she's also a huge obsidian fan. da I could push my note, put my notes into GitHub or obsidian publish option. I do a lot of that sort of thing. Second brand. What's Zettel? Caston? What does, is that a thing?
It's
[00:47:29] Tim Nash: a type of way of note organizing your notes
[00:47:31] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, okay.
[00:47:32] Tim Nash: into various categories.
It's
[00:47:36] Nathan Wrigley: okay. Yeah, I'm, a much more flat tagging kind of guy. Just something I'm imagining My approach is much more straightforward. and then you've responded. How you not let
[00:47:46] Tim Nash: put my comment up.
[00:47:47] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Sorry.
Yeah. Literally says don't tell anyone. It literally does say that. but it's in a public forum, so there we go. Anyway, there we go. That was, Anne's, cry for help if you like, join me in testing data view. So all that stuff that we talked about and now something community related. We did actually mention something about this the other week, but this article came out on the, oh, mark, you are, you've gone all dark.
I dunno.
[00:48:12] Marc Benzakein: I'm, in a cowork and.
[00:48:15] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Take space and
[00:48:17] Marc Benzakein: the lights go on. The lights go out if you don't move for a while. Oh. And apparently I see, apparently I haven't moved for a while, so I may have to step away for a second and do a little dance in the middle. Yeah, Do that.
and then I'll be right back. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'll, I'll tell you what, I'll ho you actually, I'm going, for the Edgar Allen Poe. Look. how's it working?
[00:48:39] Nathan Wrigley: Nice. Okay. You dance. We'll be back. we'll have you back as soon as you're ready. okay. So this one we mentioned, fairly recently, which is, I.
All about Learn. Learn has had a bit of a facelift. And although, the, obviously Modern Design looks better than old design, or at least in my opinion it does. On the left is the, is the new Learn Web website and on the right is the old one. I think you can probably spot the difference, but yeah, there's been a lot that's been done here, especially around these things called learning pathways.
And these learning pathways are designed to be like LMS, something a bit more complicated. And the idea is that you go from one pathway and you do a course. And if you can see here, you can see that this course over here, the beginner WordPress user course comprises of loads of le lessons, bulked into little modules.
And the idea is that these pathways will neatly segment. In the end, there'll be like a spider diagram of things that you can do. You can go from one learning pathway directly to another. Obviously, if you wanna become a developer, you'd probably start with the, basic ones and then move into the more advanced ones and what have you.
But I just wanted to point out that this has all had a bit of a facelift and, yeah, there's gonna be a lot more content. It says here, two more learning pathways are on the horizon geared towards designers working with WordPress and those who like to contribute to the WordPress project. I know it seems like a bit of fluff, making something like that website look attractive and have, an easy to understand LMS structure in the background.
if we're trying to promote this software. Having it easy to understand and having learning materials that you can get your hands on for free might I say, for absolutely no money. that's really nice. So this piece obviously is on make.wordpress.org and it's called Meet the New WordPress, sorry, meet the New Learn WordPress.
But obviously you can just go to learn.wordpress.org and check it out for yourself. But I really like it. It's really nice. I dunno if there's anything to say there. If there is, jump in. If not, I'll move on.
[00:50:46] Marc Benzakein: I like it. Yep.
[00:50:48] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I, like it. I like it. Okay. And what I really like about the courses is that you can actually point to single lessons.
So if you as a user know, okay, I don't know exactly how the media library works and obviously nobody really knows how that works, but, You can get a lesson of, what is there and then move on. You don't have to go to the course. The same thing when you are working with clients and they have a hard time with your content creation.
Now you have a place instead of creating that video yourself, which sometimes is a service that people do, but you can just point them to the single lesson in the WebPress, beginner user or in the, beginner developer place. and then say, go through the lessons and then come back with your questions kind of thing.
Yeah. you don't have to do all that explaining yourself. You have official, material that is, up to date and you can point your, clients to it, you to learn more.
[00:51:49] Nathan Wrigley: It's really nicely laid out, isn't it? The whole thing just looks really, nice. Yeah. Very much out. Yeah. And then the sort of, the killer feature really, I think is this bomb, Yeah. You click that and you get to where you wanna be, so I'll do it. It'll probably kill my machine. But Is that, clothing? It's playground.
[00:52:05] Marc Benzakein: Is that a playground? Okay. It's playground. Yeah. But,
[00:52:07] Nathan Wrigley: very nice. But obviously it's gonna dump, I, can't actually comment as to what is in this prepared lesson.
Sure. Because I haven't actually seen it. But I, think the intention is if it's not already got the content in it That at some point it will have content, which is. Adjacent to the, subject at hand. I'm not sure if this is, let's quickly go and have a look. I don't know. Themes, plugin. Yeah, it's, it's, got no particular, it doesn't have a look at posts.
No, there's no particular pages or posts in there. But I was speaking to Jonathan Boser the other day who has a great deal of input in this whole project. And the idea is that at some point, you'd click that button and the, the. learn site that was brought to being inside of a playground would have content that reflects what's going on in the actual, very actual lessons.
Very. Isn't that nice? Such a cool little, yeah. I
[00:52:58] Marc Benzakein: just, I just came back from Word Camp Canada and I did a presentation called the, Problem Parenthetical s Problems with WordPress. And one of the things that I brought up was that onboarding is, very difficult kind of for new people. And I think this is a good step towards, some of us who, have people come and say, how do I get into WordPress?
Or whatever. This is a good way to, before it, it seemed a little bit more. Messy. I hate to use that term, but, but now it's, this is really clear cut and I really like it a lot.
[00:53:33] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, you've got filtering options. So they've got this idea of level, advanced, beginner, intermediate, and so on. And then you can filter down like that.
But then you can filter down by, let's go block, oh, I don't know. Let's go. Yeah. Block development. Let's apply that. And we've only got one thing there. Presumably that's gonna be a lesson within a course, or it's a course itself. Don't know. Yeah. no, it looks like it's just on the course level there.
'cause I was probably on the course page, but the, yeah, it looks really nice. And of course all of this is completely free at the minute, beginner WordPress developer learning pathway, which is, 59 lessons, it says, so 59 bits of content to watch, beginner WordPress user might be good for your clients.
That one, if you've got a. Client roster and somebody new is joining the company and you wanna help them get started. intermediate WordPress user, intermediate theme developer, develop your first low code block theme. Gosh, it really does span a lot, doesn't it? Introduction to the WordPress API rest API, converting a short code into a to a block, developing your first WordPress block, community team sup, program supporter task.
Woo. and it goes on and on. there are three, it's paginated. There are three lots of things that we could look at. Amazing. Really. all for friends. I'm curious,
[00:54:50] Marc Benzakein: I am curious like that first, the beginner WordPress developer and, this is just throwing it out there. Do you think that, it said 59.
Lessons. Do you think that is intimidating to people? I'm i's just question the number 59 you mean? Yeah, the number of 59.
[00:55:06] Nathan Wrigley: I think they've done a great job on the screen. You can see that they've, they've put it into these little accordions, so In effect, you could view it more I don't know, 10 topics or whatever we're looking at now.
But also I think the approach, so for example, if we launch this first one, which is WordPress and web servers, the basics of the basics, you'll see that there's a whole load of content, written content, including code examples. And then the video itself, which goes with it, is, a mere six minutes.
So it's little bite-sized bits of content. So if it is intimidating, I think it's a good way of spreading it out and breaking it down. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe there's hours and hours of content in here, but it's done in little bite-sized bits. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, I don't know. Good thought though. anybody wanna comment on Mark's
[00:55:54] Tim Nash: question there?
Any development's gonna be, intimidating depending on where you're starting from? I think part of the problem is I don't think that there should be a course called beginners WordPress development, that in itself has a problem. I'm a are you a PhD HP developer who's gonna be coming into WordPress?
Are you a JavaScript person? I do. Have you never programmed in your life, do you know what a web server is? All of these would have a massive impact on whether that 59 lessons are worth any of your time. Or whether you could have maybe got away with one or two of them in a specific subject. you could just pick the single one that you want.
and the nice thing about how it's laid out is I think as long as you can get people to click in initially, they're gonna go, oh, cool. I know this, And it doesn't, it's not drip feeding this. And I think that's a really valuable thing. because so many of these courses, especially if they're commercial ones, are, driven by keeping you in a funnel that drip feeds along.
Whereas this, you can go, actually, you know what I know about web servers, I can probably just skip this and I don't really care. Also, I think it's quite nice. It doesn't, hasn't gamified it. Which I know, I suspect is probably actually on the cards that they are gonna gamify this and everybody's gonna be required.
[00:57:19] Nathan Wrigley: so interestingly, a lot to that point. Elliot Richmond popped up. Sorry. mark, your head got, chopped off there. it said it would be nice to attach badges, so it's, I guess there's a little bit of gamification going on. That's WordPress profile badges to say that you completed a particular course, like when contributions are made.
that's nice. and then dah, Let me have a look. that is, do we know if the recording with, is that about the word camp? Oh, is that your talk word? Camp Canada. I was, I dunno what the drama is that you're talking about there, but was there a drama? let's not get into that.
I won't,
[00:57:58] Marc Benzakein: get into it. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
[00:58:00] Nathan Wrigley: But
[00:58:00] Marc Benzakein: if anyone wants to know about it, they can contact me personally and, we can talk about it. Oh, okay. Oh gosh. it's not that much drama. It's, like, in, in the world of WP Drama, it's like that. Oh no,
[00:58:15] Tim Nash: no, Those, ones are like,
[00:58:18] Nathan Wrigley: you zoom right in on that.
Okay. but yeah, one thing that was curious to me was, whether or not you could save your progress. 'cause it says here, oh, I'm not showing my screen. it says here, fif not of 59. Lessons completed, exit. Course I'm wondering if, when I log in it will keep a track of where I've got to because Absolutely.
[00:58:40] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the
[00:58:41] Nathan Wrigley: sort of thing that I would dip into for a week and then forget about it for a month and then come back and be like, did I do that one? I'm not sure that I did that. And that would No. We'll have, some check marks. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Great. Okay. Shall we move on?
That's enough said about that, but yeah. Bravo. Lovely. Nice redesign. Well done. and the
[00:58:57] Birgit Pauli-Haack: courses are really good. Yeah. The video and everything, it's well up. Yep.
[00:59:02] Nathan Wrigley: High equality, basically. I know that, the team that are doing that, the, volunteers as well as the, the people that have seconded to do it, put a lot of effort into it.
And, it's a lot of hard work. Making educational videos really is so bravo. this is Joe Simpson, Jr. It's on make dot WordPress, dot org is slash accessibility. This came out a couple of weeks ago, so it's a little bit stale and in fact, the date of the meeting was in fact, a couple of days ago, but I don't know what the outcome of that meeting was, so I thought I'd raise it anyway.
Maybe this has all been solved, but it's just really to, say that the, with the. The a, a advent, for want of a better word, Alex Stein, stepped away in June from contributing to the accessibility project in WordPress. And Joe, it looks like is gonna be stepping away at the end of August. he's done three years in that role.
He says we are calling, for accessibility team reps. And it says, ideally, all make WordPress teams should have two representatives, which allow them to share responsibilities, divide tasks, and cover each other when needed. There's a little bit more information here about what a team rep is expected to do and what that actually means.
But if x accessibility is your thing and that this void created by these two people leaving is a problem, then yeah. if it's been filled already, apologies. But I dunno what the outcome of that meeting was, so I thought I'd raise it. so there you go again, anything, if not, we'll move on.
Okay, we'll move on. And this is just a nice piece of news coming out of Yost and it's to say that the Yost Care Fund, the recipient, I don't know if this is an annual thing or not, but it's a nice bit of community news. Estella er, is the recipient of the Yost Care Fund and it says for her contributions to the word Press community.
And yeah, I just wanted to give both Yost and Esella a bit of a hat tip. Quite nice to be, recognized for those kind of things. Again, I dunno if anybody wants to comment on that. I'm just breezing through these now 'cause it's three o'clock already. Gosh, without an hour. I know. Where does it go?
Okay. In which case, hat tip to Esella. Thank you Yost, community events. we had a word camp, word camp, WordPress, London, meet up the other day. That was nice. Really nice to see so many faces there. We had about, I don't know, maybe 55. Wow. 50 something. That's good. People in the room. Yeah, it's definitely on an upward ticket.
It's really nice. it's right in the center of London as well, in the location. It's fabulous. What's. Yeah, it's at the Klaviyo offices and, not a company I'm particularly familiar with, but they've got a beautiful office on, I don't know, third or fourth floor of this building and it just overlooks all the high rises in London.
Nice. Yeah, really lovely. so highly recommended and, I believe Tim Nash is gonna be talking there at some point. I'm doing the
[01:02:03] Tim Nash: Halloween special. Yeah.
[01:02:04] Nathan Wrigley: Ghosts and gremlins and things. Yeah. At Gallo. Yeah, exactly.
[01:02:09] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Oh, yeah,
[01:02:11] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, He's gonna be wearing a, yeah, he's, I dunno. Yeah.
[01:02:14] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Was that the first one?
That wasn't the first one since the pandemic? No,
[01:02:18] Nathan Wrigley: no, it's, come back. I think it's probably the fourth or fifth. That's a guess in all honesty. but if you fancy coming down, I'm gonna make the effort to go as, as many times as I can now. I really enjoyed it and I'm gonna be there, more or less every month.
It's a bit of a schlep for me, but I'm gonna make the effort anyway. Apropos of that, this is, word Camp Asia. Believe it or not, tickets are available already. Feels like Word Camp in Taipei was just like a few weeks ago. Of course it wasn't. It was, but it feels like it was. Yeah. And, if you are into WordCamp Asia, it's,
[01:02:52] Tim Nash: the tickets aren't available.
They Oh, really?
[01:02:54] Nathan Wrigley: Wait. Oh. Gone. Actually when I first put this page up, which was at some point last week that, that, wasn't there and I refreshed it this morning and I hadn't caught sight of that. you know how these things go though, they release them in batches. I think it's a bit of, I don't know why they just let 'em all go out in one go.
Guess it's to stop people. I dunno. People are on holiday or some give them a chance. But, anyway, the tickets will be on sale. If you see this thing first batch is sold out, don't worry, they'll, there's always loads more coming. but it's gonna be held in the Philippines, February the 20th to the 22nd in 2025.
So those tickets are available, but also, WordCamp us, I had to double take, when I saw this, I was thinking, I already know about this. This is, and it is not news, but it's 2025, it's been announced. So this time, more or less next year, and it seems like we're going back to the cadence that we always had for Word Camp us, which was go to a place twice.
Then go to another place. And so this for a second year in a row is gonna be at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland. so same as what's coming up in September this year. My understanding is they do that 'cause it's easiest to secure like a, higher quality of venue or something. 'cause you're booking it for more times.
so I guess it makes that a little bit easier. That's,
[01:04:13] Birgit Pauli-Haack: yeah. That's certainly one reason. The other reason is that the whole team knows how it works.
[01:04:19] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Once they
[01:04:20] Birgit Pauli-Haack: went through the first time. So that, okay. It's not a whole, that same effort to, to put it together a second time because the sponsors are now the sponsor areas known.
The, contractors that work with are known and The venue is known. Yeah. How, to do the venues may get a better
[01:04:38] Marc Benzakein: deal, they may get a better deal on it, but yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Have
[01:04:42] Nathan Wrigley: good point. okay. just a couple of comments. da Marcus Burnett saying, oh, hi Marcus. He's saying he's popping in.
he's a little bit late than usual. Thank you for joining us. He also says, plus one to Tim's comments, WordPress developer means lots of things. WordPress is the sum of many parts. And then Patricia is joining us. Ah, sorry, mark. Apologies, let me hide that. the Yos Care Fund is much more frequent than annually.
Thank you. I didn't know that. you can nominate someone you think deserves it. They have a cap and give 500 euros per nominated, accepted person. Do you know, Patricia, does it have strings attached? Do you need to spend that $500 or, euros? Sorry, on, on a particular thing like travel or something? Or can you just I don't believe so.
It's just a straight up, yeah. Nice. Just a, pat on the back for those kind of things. Oh. Says Courtney. Those dates versus back to school season are terrible. Okay. So this is interesting. So a couple of weeks ago we had this whole Word Camp Asia thing. No. Word, camp Europe. Yeah, it was Word Camp Europe. and it was, colliding pretty horribly with a major Muslim festival called, I'm gonna say Eid, but everybody that I say that to says you pronounce it not like that.
Anyway, that one, Eid al fitter, all fitter. Apologies to all of you who know how to say it, but yeah, there was a collision and the dates had been created and it was, IM immovable at that point. There were too many obstacles to unpick it, but that's interesting. Courtney, what are you saying? That they literally coincide with like end of term or something in the UK that is fully in the middle of school holidays.
not in the middle, but every school, every single school in the UK will be on holiday during the latter part. So that's gonna, in the
[01:06:32] Marc Benzakein: US school tends to start end of August, right? All the way through September, depending on where you are in the us. Okay. And yeah, so it, can be pretty, pretty challenging.
[01:06:44] Nathan Wrigley: So in the UK it's normally they, normally try to get it as close to the, the Monday or the Tuesday of, the beginning of September something. So it's often like the fourth or the 5th of September or something like that. So that will mean that it, really is colliding and, often that little bit at the end of the holiday can be special time So we'll see how that impacts things. word camp US dates as Marcus have been around the first week of school the last few years. Okay. Okay. Maybe that's something that needs to look at. Anyway, there they are. If you were wanting to go. And, at least, 26th of August. But they've,
[01:07:21] Marc Benzakein: they've, I think they've struggled with trying to find the exact right time to do Word camp us.
at one time it was, originally it was closer to the end of the year and then everyone complained about it being Thanksgiving, Christmas, and all of that. And, that holiday and, maybe we just have too many holidays in the US this time around. It's, I don't think anyone, I don't think anyone would, agree with that.
Yeah.
[01:07:46] Nathan Wrigley: It's on, the 17th of se. I've got these written in my diary. I'm not looking at the webpage, so if I've got these wrong, I apologize. But basically it's on 17th of the 20th of September, latter middle, latter part of September, which is quite different from the dates we got there.
But it also is fully in the middle of the week. Tuesday through Friday, so you really do have to take that out of your work schedule. So that's interesting.
[01:08:11] Tim Nash: I do that though. You do you treat it as a work event. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very much in favor of it, of Word camps being part of your week.
I know it excludes certain groups as much as it includes other groups, but, certainly, as a parent, Giving up a weekend has much more connotations than simply saying, oh, I'm gonna be at a work event for that weekend. You are, giving up time with your family and that's, a much harder thing to justify to most people.
[01:08:43] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. And then both you and I were at the Word Camp Whitley Bay event, but that was just the one day, right? So that, that kind of had much less of an impact. It was a Friday, kind of Fridays since Covid, nobody works Friday. so yeah, but, okay. Interesting. Anyway, they're the dates you now know, so you can buy your Word Camp Asia tickets and you can, you can at least start planning if you wanna go to Word Camp us.
Okay. So this is, it is bit of self-promotion. I apologize about that. But it's, an a, a podcast that I recorded for the WP Tavern with two people at Word Camp, Europe in, Torino not that long ago. It was with, Elena Panera and Chiara Panta. and it was all about, deafness.
And people being able to consume the web, if they're deaf. And to be honest with you, when I saw, and the reason I interviewed them, because I saw that they had a presentation about this, and I thought, that's curious because when I think about accessibility, it very, like literally none of the time does my head go to people being deaf?
because I just had the assumption, everything's available, it's words and it's pictures. And that seems to be the thing that most people are thinking about. is there alt text on the images and can you read it? Is the contrast good and all this kind of stuff. But honestly, I got such an interesting schooling, from these two, especially given how important video has become.
And some of the takeaways that I got were really interesting. So for that podcast, I do a completely faithful, I. Transcript, like literally every single word is what they say, like word for word. And if I can't understand the word, I listen to it over and over again until I'm fairly sure I've got it right or I delete the word.
no, I don't do that. and, but they both said curiously, sometimes that's not what we want. Sometimes we want like the exp expedited version because trying to keep up. If, you're trying to keep up with the speed that I talk and we might have a fast talking guest on and there's an hour of content by the end of it, you've read loads.
they were saying sometimes we just want the gist of it. on a YouTube video, we don't want every single word. We just wanna know roughly what's going on. Anyway, fascinating subject. And if you haven't thought about how difficult it may or may not be for people who have impaired hearing, go and have a listen to it.
And it only got published the other day and I've, hopefully we'll get in touch with 'em and find out what they made of my transcript. I dunno. But anyway, there you go. Very interesting. Anybody got anything about that?
[01:11:37] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Oh, I definitely,
[01:11:39] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.
[01:11:40] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm just there.
go ahead. I definitely need to listen.
[01:11:46] Nathan Wrigley: No, I, okay. I'm gonna choose it. I'm gonna say, mark, you go first and then we'll go to,
[01:11:52] Marc Benzakein: I, think it's really cool as a person who, turns on subtitles for everything and oh, and reads along, I. With, everything and, I am not as practiced as, say a deaf person, would be.
I look at it and I, think constantly, how do people keep up with this? Why would they want all of this information? And it's interesting to hear it like straight from the community that these are designed for, That they say, actually we don't, I'm very curious to listen to the whole episode now because I, you know what I've speculated it sounds like they feel pretty strongly,
[01:12:36] Nathan Wrigley: yeah,
There, there was a whole lot in there. And, also, if, for example, if you're watching television, there are certain categories of transcription. So for example, you may wish to have a transcription which transcribes the noises that are going on. Yeah. And obviously, in a mo like in a podcast episode between me and some other people, there's hopefully not much in the way of noise, but if you're watching, I don't know, a horror film, Like the noises could be really significant. Yeah. Yeah. and Tim's smiling at this point. I suspect Tim enjoys a good horror film given his, proclivity for Halloween and Doom speaking. but so it might be important to have those noises transcribed. Faithfully accurately. Whereas you might not want any of that.
And you might just want the sort of parent, a parenthesis, not that's the wrong word. A sort of paraphrasing of everything that's gone on anyway, the point being in a web, which is increasingly dominated by video, right? This stuff needs to be thought about. And honestly, I think the average age of the four of us is not 15.
but if you look, speak for
[01:13:41] Marc Benzakein: yourself. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. My average age.
[01:13:44] Nathan Wrigley: Your average age is, yeah. but if you watch, if you stare over the shoulder of a teenager, it is all the video. It's everything is a video. it's just video to video. It's pretty phenomenal. And so we're building, this is more about what the, future of the internet's gonna look like.
Go check it out. Episode one 30 on the tavern. Big it, did you wanna say something?
[01:14:09] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I'm with Mark. Yeah. I'm English is my second language, so it's not what Mark does. But we also have always, subtitles on, on English, movies or even on the German ones. Yeah, because, sometimes you, it's dialect or it's a different accent and it's hard to, follow along, But I also know that there are plenty of people who also don't want the full, watch the full one hour live streaming. they just wanna get the gist of it. And it doesn't matter if it's, if you can hear it or not, you just don't have the time. So summarizing, a, video with, salient points, is really something that, that helps your content anyway.
so well putting together some summary or some, something is really, important to.
[01:15:03] Marc Benzakein: I, have to say, for me, I, I don't know if everybody else is like this, but even if I want to learn how to do something and I go and find a YouTube video or something like that, I don't wanna watch the whole video.
I'll either watch it in double speed, or I'll look for the bullet points. What do I need to do this, and this and so I, don't, that seems to be, I think that's a human thing. Yeah. In general. you just wanna get to your answers as fast as possible.
[01:15:31] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, yeah.
So Peach's saying, it's interesting, most people only think of blindness. Yeah, that's where I was at. Peach, reaccess, but so much more to it. Elena and Chiara are doing great accessibility work. Yes. But, if you are producing audio or video content, it's definitely interesting to go and listen to that because it might not be that the faithful perfect rendition of your po, of your tr your podcast episode, the transcript needs to be exact.
the sort of downside of that, is that it's more work to create an expurgated version. although ai, oh, that was the other thing that came outta the episode, 'cause I'm quite skeptical about ai. We'll come to that in a minute. AI, from their point of view, has been phenomenally cool.
Because suddenly you can plumb in a you've gotta trust the ai, right? But I think broadly speaking, we can all say, if you put in a 10,000 word article into chat GPT and say make it 500 words broadly, it's gonna get the gist of it. Now, obviously, if it was super technical, probably not. but AI has transformed this kind of stuff.
you can make alternative versions, you can do the Spanish translation and the Italian translation, and the Japanese translation by clicking a button and, pretty phenomenal. So anyway, there you go. I'm gonna move on if that's all right. But I'm gonna stay with the topic of ai, this beauty, wordpress.com is, joining forces with a, an institution company, called perplexity. I don't know how this stuff works, but the, key proposition of perplexity is instead of being a search engine there, their moniker is we are an answer engine. And the idea is you go and ask it a question.
So it's, not the same relationship that you might have with Google where, I don't know, you want a map and you want multiple things happening. I think perplexity is more about, okay, here's a problem I've got. Tell me the answer. Now. It would appear that perplexity thing is to go and scrape the internet, as you'd imagine, and then give you the answer.
Now, the problem for people like us content creators and people who are, pitching websites for people who wanna create their own content, is that increasingly, this is creating a bit of a barrier. Google, it's job is to, at least its job, was to. You put in a query and it will send you links to websites and you click on those links and hey, everybody's happy.
Google got their thing and we get traffic. But in this scenario, you don't get traffic because Perplexity job is just to give you the answer. And there's been a bit of a brew aha about, look, perplexity has gone out scraped the internet and by all accounts, and you can see it on these Verge articles, perplexity, grand Theft, ai, and another one perplexity is cutting checks to publishers following plagiarism accusations.
The accusation is basically that they're managing to find their way around people's wish to have their content protected. So think robots do text. I don't want perplexity to have my content and serve it up, and I don't get any credit for it. They're getting around that and anyway, so all of that, I. Now wordpress.com is going to surrender its content, for want of a better word.
but perplexity has come forward with this idea that, okay, in return for your content, we will give you some of the ad revenue and we will share it with you. No idea what that'll look like. I'm imagining it's like a bit like a Spotify kind of thing where you get a teeny, tiny, teeny bit. If you've got a super popular site, it might work for you if you've got like a normal site, maybe not.
I don't know. Anyway, I just think this is fascinating. We're just pushing new boundaries. wordpress.com is gonna give up their content and I was very careful in that. I read it. It said, if you want to opt out, so the word there is not if you want to opt in. If you want to opt out, we already offer the ability to opt out of content sharing.
So the box is there to tick, but unless I've read it incorrectly, you have to go in search of that box. yeah, I don't know what you think about all this. It's a bit brave new world, but it, certainly a bit of, a watershed moment for content creators. I think over to you, if you've got anything.
[01:20:06] Tim Nash: I guess I'm gonna ask you a very simple question, which is, Google's been doing this for a long time in that, if you think about, Google's knowledge base and Onebox and all of this stuff, Google started off as you said, with this idea that, a very simple deal with you as an, as a website owner.
You let us take your data and we'll bring, we'll send users to your site. It was a pretty fair exchange in many ways, but e over the last 10, 15, 20 years even Google has slowly but surely been sending less and less people to your site because they've been delivering the answers themselves. They even now have an AI bot that does exactly this,
[01:20:48] Marc Benzakein: right?
[01:20:49] Tim Nash: But you are happy to give them the data still, so you still clearly see the value in that deal.
[01:20:58] Nathan Wrigley: I guess the, I guess holding up Google as the thing that I want isn't the case. I'd rather that Google wasn't doing that. Actually, that's not even true. Honestly, I don't really have a much of a position on it.
'cause none of my content gets that sort of reach, if Yeah. But, if I was like, I don't know, I don't know, I fix it.com where the whole point is to, you provide an answer. How do you repair a Samsung Galaxy S whatever phone will give you that information. If, you rely on, I don't know, ads for example.
And, even now though, Google, although it does give you a bit of that, it does you do get that flavor of other things, don't you? Like it might show you a map where the local repair shop is, and it might show you alternative listings. It's not perfect, is it? None of it's perfect, but this does seem to be straying into new and interesting territory.
[01:21:51] Tim Nash: the second thing I was just gonna bring up is that the most people don't come and visit sites. You said it earlier. Yeah. They're on their phones watching videos. So there's a whole shift where the, the second largest search engine for a long time has been YouTube.
But it's quickly being, counter up with by TikTok.
And similar people aren't searching. I fix it on Google to how to fix my iPhone screen. They're gonna be searching on YouTube how to fix my iPhone screen. Yeah, YouTube literally puts a box saying You cannot leave our platform. How dare you try to look on this external link and then in a very tiny print.
Okay. I really do understand the risks of do clicking on this link. Same things link. If you go on any of the social media platforms and you link to your stuff, there's no way that gets promoted. You are fine. That's weirdly, your reach for better term suddenly reduces for that given post. Yeah. 'cause the social and social media systems do not want to go to your site.
Nobody wants to send stuff people to your site anymore. Is this not a way of at least getting the data that you from your site? I, by the way, I'm blaming very much a devil's advocate.
[01:23:10] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, no, I think that's the argument. It's interesting, isn't it? 'cause trying to figure out what the publishing incentive is, if your incentive is just to be a great custodian of knowledge and you just wanna, give your knowledge away for free.
But if, I don't know, if you're like a local journalist or something and you've spent ages researching a particular thing and you discover that, your, website doesn't drive any traffic. And the only model we've got these days for journalism is ad-based. in the UK we've got something slightly different, but it's only for one institution.
I, I think it does present problems for what the future of the internet looks like. If it's gonna be an ad based model, which it has been, that's problematic.
[01:23:52] Birgit Pauli-Haack: But. Yeah, but I remember a few countries there, Germany was one or some publishers in Germany and in Spain, the same that they were actually suing Google to pay the publishers for the snippet that they put in because, yeah, they, they have advertising on there and using somebody else's content to show it to their users.
and then, I don't know if you have used perplexity. Per se, they actually give you, links where you can learn more and, where you can, see a video or something like that after you are having a, question there. at least in the system where I am in there, yeah. For perplexity. but it's also, it's, I'm with Tim there.
Yeah. Where there was, we, liked it. When Google, we were harvesting our content and putting it in, AI and then giving it out in answers. but all of a sudden, yeah, we don't wanna do it with AI anymore.
[01:24:57] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it's interesting. Google has an
[01:24:58] Birgit Pauli-Haack: ai Yeah. That must be AI 4 19 98. Yeah.
[01:25:02] Nathan Wrigley: I'm not entirely sure that we were all that happy with it back then.
I just think we're just learnings. We're just figuring it out, aren't we? and when it was a fairly blunt algorithm that obviously people were trying to gain but didn't really understand it, but they knew it was a, an algorithm, which if you could actually unpick it, you could figure out how to make it work.
This is, just something so interesting, and, it's so quirky and, I think it's gonna really. undermine is the wrong word, but upend make it difficult to figure out what your publishing workflow looks like if you are trying to make it into a career and you're trying to make your website pay for itself.
But also, I think it's a, I, do think if you do put something in telling perplexity, do not scrape my content, and then it does scrape your content, that seems that's, something that's a little bit concerning isn't, it's kinda I'm gonna take it anyway, I don't really care. and actually it's interesting, perplexity didn't do it.
They employed a third party who did it on their behalf.
[01:26:03] Tim Nash: even getting round that, how we've, back in the days when RSS was a thing that people actually wanted to have.
The second that you, ended up with, everybody would start off with their brand new blog and it would set the RSSV to show the entire post.
[01:26:17] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:26:18] Tim Nash: And then within a week it was down to a snippets. Yeah. Because they realized that bots were just taking that and publishing it elsewhere.
[01:26:25] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.
[01:26:25] Tim Nash: The second you post on the internet. You lose control of that content. That's, whether or not you legally think you have, morally have, but in practical terms, I published something, it is gone.
[01:26:43] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.
[01:26:44] Tim Nash: They could easily argue. We didn't scrape it from your site. We scraped it from mirror over here, which ha yesterday. Yeah. And that's where we got it from. So there's so many arguments that you, but if you publish something on the internet, it's on the web, it's on the,
[01:27:01] Nathan Wrigley: it will be an interesting tightrope for the PR [emailprotected] to have to tread where, I, would have an expectation that a proportion of their user base do have a supposition that my content is mine.
And, I didn't need to go out there and tell the bots to stop finding it. I just, that should have been the case. So I completely agree with you, Tim. You click publish, you, lose control of it, that's, in a sense, that's what you're trying to achieve, isn't it? You put it out there and it's gone.
It's just gonna be interesting to see how these publications who, have resorted to all sorts of things. just filling the page with ads or putting up paywalls so that you can only see a proportion of it and hoping that you'll subscribe. It'll be interesting to see what this. Adds into that mix and, and the rate at which it changes our expectations, But, just, make
[01:27:57] Marc Benzakein: sure your snippet has your, website link in at the very beginning of it. Yeah. That's So that at least you, Yeah,
[01:28:04] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, Okay. Okay. The gamers. So there we go. Yeah. I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to rush a little bit. I, in fact, I'm just gonna go right to do you know what, it's, now we're on time.
there's about eight other pieces that I was gonna mention, but now that we've run out time, I don't think I'm gonna, because. That's where the show ought to end. And I know you lovely people have got better things to do and I've gotta take my son to the gym in about 10 minutes. So if I start droning on about other things, I'll get in trouble with him.
So apologies for, making you read things, which we never talked about. That's, that's my fault, but that means that we've got read these things. Oh, sorry. Yeah, but that's it. That's probably what we've got time for. There was a whole load of other stuff, the new, the newsletter which comes out tomorrow, which as I said at the beginning of the show, you can subscribe to, it'll have a load, more links for other bits and pieces as well.
but Time's Up. That's all we've got time for. So it just remains for me to say a big thank you to Tim Nash, to Bigot, powery Hack, and to Mark be, I'm gonna get it. Benzocaine. There you
[01:29:12] Marc Benzakein: go.
[01:29:12] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I had to think of Novocaine and as soon as I think of Novocaine,
[01:29:17] Marc Benzakein: benzocaine, there Benza pain.
I like it. There you go. Yeah, there you go.
[01:29:22] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, thank you for joining me today and thank you for anybody who was in the comments today. Really appreciate that. It's always a little bit slower in the comments during the holiday period, but I appreciate all of those people that came and and joined in just one quick one from Cameron and he said we shouldn't be surprised that a multi-billion dollar corporation is doing things typical of a multi-billion dollar corporation just because they use a WP logo.
Ooh. And on that bombshell, I'm gonna ask you all to gimme a wave, if you don't mind. Can we raise the hands, give us a wave? Oh, yeah. Nice. Okay. Everybody did it first time and we'll be back next week. I dunno who's gonna be on the show exactly, but we'll be back next week, so I will see you then.
Thanks so much. Take care. Good to see you. Bye. Take care.
